Resignation of OTW Director

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2023-05-21 17:05:38 UTC

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The Organization for Transformative Works (OTW) Board of Directors regrets to announce that Heather McGuire has resigned from her role as a Director. Heather was elected to her seat in 2022 and her resignation is effective as of the 21st of May 2023. Her seat will be filled in the upcoming election.

We would like to thank Heather for her service as a member of the Board and for her years as an OTW volunteer. We wish her all the best in her future endeavors.

The Organization for Transformative Works is the non-profit parent organization of multiple projects including Archive of Our Own, Fanlore, Open Doors, Transformative Works and Cultures, and OTW Legal Advocacy. We are a fan run, entirely donor-supported organization staffed by volunteers. Find out more about us on our website.

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Seiriol (Serine) Sun 21 May 2023 05:16PM UTC

Thank you Heather for your service as one of the directors of the Board. Wish you all the best for your upcoming journeys, whether they are fannish or not /cross fingers.

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Account Deleted Sun 21 May 2023 08:19PM UTC

Okay

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PyroAo Sun 21 May 2023 08:39PM UTC

Thank you for your volunteer work

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LaikaFlash Sun 21 May 2023 09:18PM UTC

Good luck. o7

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SugarsweetRomantic Sun 21 May 2023 09:19PM UTC

Thank you, Heather, for your work for the OTW.

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acidbirth Sun 21 May 2023 09:58PM UTC

Wow, I hope it wasn’t due to the recent backlash. Lots of uncertainty going around here lately.

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1. waughisme Sun 21 May 2023 10:25PM UTC
  
  Oh no what happened?
  
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2. 1. JaliyahJade Sun 21 May 2023 10:26PM UTC
    
    People freaking out about AI
    
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  2. acidbirth Sun 21 May 2023 10:27PM UTC
    
    I’m just speculating, but it might have something to do with the controversy around this recent post: https://archiveofourown.org/admin_posts/25888
    
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  3. MalcontentCatboy Mon 22 May 2023 03:05AM UTC
    
    The typical tempests in teacups from Twitter.
    
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  4. 1. LordiTheRailgun Mon 22 May 2023 08:58AM UTC
      
      "Tempests in teacups"
      Thank you, I shall be using that from now on.
      Edit: forgot to mention that I'm not a Native English speaker so it's actually the first time I've heard that phrase.
      
      Last Edited Mon 22 May 2023 09:34AM UTC
      
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    2. 1. MalcontentCatboy Mon 22 May 2023 09:39AM UTC
        
        Happy to help, then. Just as an FYI, it's usually singular, "tempest in a teacup," but we've had two going on lately.
        
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      2. LordiTheRailgun Mon 22 May 2023 09:50AM UTC
        
        I could imagine one was probably due to the data scraping post last week. Hooo mama the comments, man. I wonder if the massive drama is what caused Heather to step down as Director.
        If anything I did get my mind changed and my horizon broadened regarding AI on the site and the moderation of such.
        
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notpiez (notpies) Sun 21 May 2023 10:48PM UTC

k

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EchoEkhi Sun 21 May 2023 11:21PM UTC

Notably, this is the only resignation announcement in OTW history to not quote a reason for resignation. All previous announcements quoted "personal reasons".
Does Heather McGuire remain an OTW volunteer?
Did she give a specific reason for her resignation?
Is this resignation related to the latest anti-AI and #endOTWracism controversies?

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1. TexasDreamer01 Sun 21 May 2023 11:38PM UTC
  
  ^ Given the timing of this, context is going to be important. The only lead-up to this announcement seems to be the recent discussions in the news posts, and there's a lot of eyes now on the visible volunteers of the organization.
  
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2. moljn Mon 22 May 2023 01:24PM UTC
  
  It's not really any of our business if she doesn't wish to give a reason.
  
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3. 1. EchoEkhi Mon 22 May 2023 02:57PM UTC
    
    Of course it isn't, and in previous occasions when the resigning director refuses to give a specific reason, the board always quoted a vague "personal reasons" in the announcement. What I'm interested in is why this time, they are not able to conclusively say that this resignation is due to personal reasons. Is it because the resignation is due to some other reason instead?
    
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  2. 1. moljn Mon 22 May 2023 05:44PM UTC
      
      If they forgot to add it, they can, of course. But if she hasn't given a reason, or doesn't wish that reason to be made public, even in vague terms, that's the way it is.
      
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    2. BitterOldFandomQueen Wed 24 May 2023 03:23AM UTC
      
      Personal is personal. You may have to just sit with not knowing. Not everything is related to some big controversy—she wasn’t on it long, it’s entirely possible she realized it’s just too much work for her at this time.
      
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4. LordiTheRailgun Mon 22 May 2023 03:04PM UTC
  
  I will admit that I live under a rock because the site is my personal escape so I'm a little out of the loop. But what was the controversy around #endOTWracism?
  
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5. 1. Prismatic Bell (PrismaticBell) Mon 22 May 2023 03:58PM UTC
    
    They said three years ago they were going to address some truly disgusting racism on the site. So far they’ve…added a block button that was already in development when they made that promise. Now they’ve said they’ll hire a diversity counselor “in the next five years.” So eight years we’re making creators of color wait to have their concerns addressed? Unacceptable.
    
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  2. 1. LordiTheRailgun Mon 22 May 2023 04:01PM UTC
      
      Uh-huh, I see. Thank you for the answers.
      
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    2. thewonderofpandora Tue 23 May 2023 01:35AM UTC
      
      Lol the second they waste money on diversity bs is the second I stop donating.
      
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    3. 1. PerseusRising Tue 23 May 2023 01:49AM UTC
        
        Wow. Okay. Thank you for making it very obvious you hate people of color and LGBT people, by calling accommodating them "diversity bs"
        They already have a diversity consultant on staff, by the way, so they already "wasted money" on making sure minorities aren't harassed here. I'm sure they'll survive just fine without a bigot's money.
        
        Last Edited Tue 23 May 2023 02:00AM UTC
        
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      2. thewonderofpandora Tue 23 May 2023 02:04AM UTC
        
        Case in point right here people.
        
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        PerseusRising Tue 23 May 2023 02:07AM UTC
        
        Again, thanks for making your hatred of lgbt people and people of color like me very, painfully obvious. There is no "case in point", you just hate it when people acknowledge minorities exist and are people too.
        
        Maybe try spreading your far-right garbage on a site that isn't filled with PoC and LGBT people?
        AO3 is the worst possible site to be a bigot on.
        
        Last Edited Tue 23 May 2023 02:15AM UTC
        
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        (Previous comment deleted.)
        
        (4 more comments in this thread)
        
        Prismatic Bell (PrismaticBell) Tue 23 May 2023 02:23AM UTC
        
        It’s fine, I’ve been meaning to sign up for a few years and keep forgetting (This Is Your Brain On ADHD). I’ll be happy to fill the gap.
        
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        PerseusRising Tue 23 May 2023 02:25AM UTC
        
        Hell yeah, I'll do the same. Two cool as hell people are far better than one bigot.
        
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        Prismatic Bell (PrismaticBell) Tue 23 May 2023 02:31AM UTC
        
        I’d hardly call myself cool as hell, but I’ve been in fandom for twenty*coughcoughwhatwasthat* years. I’ll fight like hell before I cede it to that riffraff.
        
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      3. Prismatic Bell (PrismaticBell) Tue 23 May 2023 02:22AM UTC
        
        Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
        
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      4. FullOfMicroplastics Tue 23 May 2023 02:34AM UTC
        
        Unironically, this comment made me remember that I should probably sign up for monthly donations now that I have a job and use the archive regularly. Thank you!
        
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      5. pretty_weird_ideas Tue 23 May 2023 03:01AM UTC
        
        Reminder to keep donating to OTW if you want proper change and to speak your mind when necessary so that the policies that you want on a site you personally contribute to should be enacted! Also, remember to vote! The entire point of this organization being open to the public was to allow for the fan archive to actually service ALL FANS. It's fine if YOU don't want to center diversity but it's clear that OTW wants to, and has promised to. Even on their previous hiring post, they're asking distinctly for diverse voices and volunteers. You're fighting with OTW instead of for OTW when you fight against and undermine the promises that they make for diversity and inclusion on their website.
        
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      6. OfMonstersAndWerewolves Tue 23 May 2023 11:04AM UTC
        
        This isn't an airport, you don't have to announce your departure.
        
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      7. BritHistorian Tue 23 May 2023 03:00PM UTC
        
        I've never heard this before, but I'll definitely be using it in the future. ^_^
        
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    4. VulcansDarkest Tue 23 May 2023 02:08AM UTC
      
      It's not a massively rich social media site. I think given how quickly Facebook and Twitter roll things out, people forget that development of software and changing already extremely fragile code takes a lot of time and resources. It's not perfect, but it's a fandom archive, not a billion dollar industry. Expecting quick turnaround times from a board of volunteers that's constantly having to deal with harassment, and holding everything together, is absolutely absurd.
      If you want to change things, volunteer your time. See how complicated and nuanced the issues are. Then find solutions instead of harassing people and complaining about things that they are working to change.
      
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    5. 1. pretty_weird_ideas Tue 23 May 2023 03:44AM UTC
        
        While this is true for software issues, I would like to point out that there is no sign of there being any noticeable progress on hiring the diversity consultant for the OTW. Even proof that the person in question is hired as well as a line up of their tasks (none of which should include touching code at all) would be helpful. A single hire from a pre-established firm should not take 3 years (they promised to hire one in 2020, and they have simply only stated that two volunteers were searching for them). The promises start to feel hollow.
        While coding is a massive upheaval for the site, the diversity consultant promise that the OTW in 2020 that are yet to be fulfilled is not coding-based. Asking for something that was promised is not harassment. A single comment that aligns with "Please hire the diversity consultant, we need one. Here's why we need one..." is not at all harassment. And should not be grouped in with such.
        
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        PerseusRising Tue 23 May 2023 05:34AM UTC
        
        Trans Rights are Human Rights, bigot.
        
        Last Edited Tue 23 May 2023 05:39AM UTC
        
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        MalcontentCatboy Tue 23 May 2023 05:07AM UTC
        
        What exactly do you want this "consultant" to do? The demands seem to be angling for censorship. Hell, the activists calling for the "consultant" are actively attempting to harass authors on this site for writing stories that offend them.
        We don't need that.
        
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        (17 more comments in this thread)
smallhorizons Mon 22 May 2023 12:56AM UTC

I encourage OTW to discuss new applicants' plans/thoughts regarding addressing anti-racist harassment on AO3, including hiring and working with a diversity consultant. I know that during the election process OTW hosts & posts interviews with each applicant, and I think it's important for the user base to know if/how potential board members are going to prioritize following through on a promise made 3 years ago.

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1. thosenearandfarwars Mon 22 May 2023 03:28PM UTC
  
  Strongly agree. Their positions on AI given the most recent conversations on that are also important.
  
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2. Prismatic Bell (PrismaticBell) Mon 22 May 2023 03:59PM UTC
  
  Seconded, and I also would like to hear more about AI fics. At a bare minimum I think it should be mandatory to tag them as AI. I’m here to read authors, not plagiarists.
  
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3. 1. NeoQwerty Wed 24 May 2023 02:11PM UTC
    
    I wouldn't make it mandatory, but encouraging AI-tagging (instead of banning it) and smacking down people who then harrass the AI-tagged stuff means that it'll organically lean toward getting tagged just for people to not get scolded (or yelled at, sometimes people get heated) for it, instead of people trying to hide it and pass it off as their work and not just them in a... director/editor role to the robot.
    I would highly consider making it a "major warning" tag, maybe add a new icon for it next to the title similar to archive-locked fics, with a little computer emoji on it?
    Making it one of the major warnings (so that it's up there with if it's underage/graphic/etc in the priorities and not lost in the misc. tags) and giving it a title icon (so it doesn't require a new warnings layout for the 4 icons-square, just gets added next to the lock icon) should probably work well enough.
    
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  2. KingAragornTargeryen10 Wed 24 May 2023 03:32PM UTC
    
    Its not plagiarism!
    
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  3. 1. Prismatic Bell (PrismaticBell) Thu 25 May 2023 08:24AM UTC
      
      Getting a tool that steals from others to write a thing for you and then claiming it as yours?
      Buddy, that is the textbook definition of plagiarism.
      
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    2. 1. KingAragornTargeryen10 Thu 25 May 2023 10:47AM UTC
        
        AI isnt plagiarism. In five years everyone will use it. watch.
        
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      2. Prismatic Bell (PrismaticBell) Thu 25 May 2023 08:31PM UTC
        
        It is very much plagiarism.
        Sounds to me like you use it and you're mad that most people don't like it. Have you considered trying to develop writing skills instead of relying on theft?
        
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      3. KingAragornTargeryen10 Thu 25 May 2023 10:48AM UTC
        
        and we dont have copy right law. so technically it can't be plagiarism because AI has ownership. all im doign is sharing the AI's work with the world.
        
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      4. Prismatic Bell (PrismaticBell) Thu 25 May 2023 08:32PM UTC
        
        "Technically"
        Yeah okay. You're a plagiarist, you just don't want to admit it. I don't believe your plagiarism should be allowed on the archive because it's against TOS to plagiarize.
        
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        KingAragornTargeryen10 Thu 25 May 2023 09:10PM UTC
        
        Except A03 believes otherwise! Funny how my works are allowed even though they are AI created! Whine and Whine!
        
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        (4 more comments in this thread)
      5. KingAragornTargeryen10 Thu 25 May 2023 12:21PM UTC
        
        and who says im stealing anything here? no one's done Jon and Rhaenrya fnaficitons so technically its not plagerism.
        
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akira92414 Mon 22 May 2023 01:34AM UTC

Thank you for your service, wish you the best :)

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VulcansDarkest Mon 22 May 2023 02:42AM UTC

Thank you for all your work! I'm sorry you ended up working during a time when users feel entirely too comfortable harassing the volunteers about literally everything. I hope things go well for you!

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1. MalcontentCatboy Mon 22 May 2023 03:19AM UTC
  
  It's definitely going to be a problem for the organization going forward if they can't take a strong stance against harassment of their volunteers by outside activists.
  
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2. 1. ShotOfStress Mon 22 May 2023 07:37AM UTC
    
    What happened? Can u explain it, pls?
    
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  2. 1. MalcontentCatboy Mon 22 May 2023 09:36AM UTC
      
      I can't explain because I can only speculate. There has been lot of activism targeting OTW over the last week or two making various demands. It's already become personal in at least one other case, so it wouldn't surprise me if the situation played a role in this.
      
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    2. 1. weshouldfondue Mon 22 May 2023 02:49PM UTC
        
        “I can’t explain” you could have ended the sentence there.
        
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    3. MintGreen_and_NeonPink Mon 22 May 2023 11:24AM UTC
      
      Nothing has happened. At least not anything anyone has any knowledge on. Anonymous here is going around spreading their own speculations as facts. There has been controversy regarding the AO3's policies on AI and data scraping, as well as the End OTW Racism thing, but that's a far cry from the organized campaign of harrasment and terror orchestrated against AO3 volunteers by outside agents that's being insinuated by the conspiratorially-minded
      
      Last Edited Mon 22 May 2023 11:27AM UTC
      
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    4. 1. Guinevak Mon 22 May 2023 12:48PM UTC
        
        It REALLY is.
        
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      2. In_Which_Magic_Is_Real Wed 24 May 2023 02:52PM UTC
        
        Ao3 volunteers have already been harassed by malicious groups, has everyone forgotten how they were sent actual child pornography to protest the fact that Ao3 allowed underage content? The Ao3 had to completely update their security policies and disabled comments for a while to try and make sure it wouldn't happen again.
        While this was a pretty easy example, other more recent actions by users cross into a grey area.
        If you read through the comments on the AI post, many users have admitted to reporting AI work multiple times, despite knowing that AI work is not banned and that such reportig is only causing more work for the volunteers. Can this be considered harassment?
        And if you read the End OTW Racism post, they encourage users to change the titles of their works, leave comments on fics and send messages to Ao3, all about the policy changes they want to happen. Can this be considered harassment?
        The line between trying to raise awareness and harassment is pretty thin online, and many people disagree on what that line is. No one agrees, but there have been examples and claiming that nothing has happened is incorrect.
        
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      3. MintGreen_and_NeonPink Wed 24 May 2023 03:45PM UTC
        
        "And if you read the End OTW Racism post, they encourage users to change the titles of their works, leave comments on fics and send messages to Ao3, all about the policy changes they want to happen. Can this be considered harassment?"
        No? Who in God's name is getting harrassed by a change in a work title? That's literally the most innocuos form of protest I can imagine. Aas for "leaving comments on fics", this bit omits so much info as to be outright misleading: they are encouraging those in support of the protest to seek out works with the protest name in the title and leave comments in support of the initiative. They're not telling anyone to harrass anyone in the comments - quite the opposite! And AO3 has open communications channels for the explicit purpose of receiving community feedback. Have we perhaps forgotten that this place is literally financed, staffed and generally kept afloat by its users? Some of the changes EndOTWRacism is advocating for are things that the OTW has already promised years back. It's hardly surprising that people donating their money and effort would like to see it go to a good cause.
        Besides, you're being disingenuous. The user I was specifically talking about is going around trying to insinuate that Heather's resignation is a direct result of a harrassment campaign. There's no proof of that being true, which they themself readily admitted when pressed for actual substantial info. This is what I was referring to. Anyone claiming that is just trying very hard to poison the well. I'm not saying nothing bad has ever happened in the history of AO3 ever, I'm talking about a specific case, to which, for example, the underage content protesting you mention is completely irrelevant
        
        Last Edited Fri 26 May 2023 09:02PM UTC
        
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  3. Prismatic Bell (PrismaticBell) Mon 22 May 2023 05:41PM UTC
    
    1) not harassment
    2) users are not “outside activists”
    
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3. Nightcandle Mon 22 May 2023 07:33AM UTC
  
  Seconded.
  
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4. delilahdraken Mon 22 May 2023 07:42AM UTC
  
  I share this opinion.
  
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5. Prismatic Bell (PrismaticBell) Mon 22 May 2023 05:41PM UTC
  
  Asking the board to keep its promises is not harassment.
  
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6. 1. VulcansDarkest Tue 23 May 2023 12:08AM UTC
    
    Harassment isn't about the message itself, but how the message is delivered. The obsessiveness. The inability to take any other answer than the one people want. Sometimes things are more complicated than people see, and the fact that people refuse to accept that and hammer away as if it's somehow life and death rather than an archive of fanfiction is, well, interesting to see, and I have no doubt horrific to be on the receiving end of. It is harassment. And it is bad.
    
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  2. 1. moljn Tue 23 May 2023 12:08PM UTC
      
      Are people contacting volunteers (Board or otherwise) outside of org channels, or are you talking about things like changing fic titles and commenting (without getting abusive or personal) on news posts? Because the latter two are not harassment.
      
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    2. Guinevak Tue 23 May 2023 03:17PM UTC
      
      Love the smell of irony in the morning.
      
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7. vegetablearian Mon 22 May 2023 07:48PM UTC
  
  Seconding this. I'm no longer surprised that there are always so few candidates.
  
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HiddenTeacher Mon 22 May 2023 04:23AM UTC

Thank you for your dedication to this volunteer role!

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JKFic Mon 22 May 2023 05:21AM UTC

Thank you and good luck. Hoping we get some kind of explanation.

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LordiTheRailgun Mon 22 May 2023 08:59AM UTC

Oh damn. Well good luck to you, Heather. And thanks for sticking with the site and all of us.

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cloudygremlin Mon 22 May 2023 01:44PM UTC

So many people in these comments using far right political gaslighting against progressives enforcing accountability. Yikes bruh

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weshouldfondue Mon 22 May 2023 02:48PM UTC

Would love some further clarity on your plans to remove racist media on the archive soon, thank you.

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1. acidbirth Mon 22 May 2023 07:24PM UTC
  
  It’s not AO3’s role to judge that something is bigoted. It is up to individual users to make that call and avoid those works. AO3 has always been about curating one’s own experience.
  And I’m not saying I’m pro-harassment. If it targets specific people or incites violence, it rightfully gets deleted.
  Going further would require AO3 volunteers to make subjective calls (because there is no objective handbook for deciding what is bigoted and what isn’t) and remove content that others could find offensive, which, when you get down to it, could be any fic on the archive. The current policies are inclusive of as many fanworks as legally feasible, which benefits everyone because no one has to wonder if they’re going to get targeted in some fic purge or banned for writing about controversial subjects unless they’re using it to harass individuals.
  
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2. 1. weshouldfondue Mon 22 May 2023 07:31PM UTC
    
    >And I’m not saying I’m pro-harassment. If it targets specific people or incites violence, it rightfully gets deleted.
    It really, really doesn’t. That’s the entire root of the issue here.
    
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  2. 1. acidbirth Mon 22 May 2023 07:34PM UTC
      
      I’m sorry to ask, but do you have any examples?
      
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    2. 1. pretty_weird_ideas Mon 22 May 2023 08:32PM UTC
        
        Three years ago they promised to use a diversity consultant to look over their TOS (among other systems) and see if there were any blindspots and the easiest thing I can look for off the top of my head is the fact that there are several cases of intentional racism on the part of the author or commenter standing on AO3 (temporarily or permanently) because the TOS doesn't specify what qualifies as harassment, and when it does it doesn't explicitly explain what happens when you target a group. Such as race, gender, ethnicity, etc. If you search through the current demands EndOTWRacism is making they give very explicit examples of intentional harassment on the part of poster not going down at all, or taking several go-arounds with the Abuse Team.
        Three years to hire a single person is pretty awful, especially since it's not hard to find a DEI consultant in this day and age. AO3 back in 2020 admitted that the current system for harassment and racism was flawed and vowed to look it over. But the only thing that they were able to do in all three years was finish the project that was already in the works completely separate from it; the Block and Mute Function. I am very grateful that these functions are here, but I'm just confused as to how after three years of OTW admitting that the TOS is somewhat inequitable in terms of targeting groups that we still can't get an answer as to what they have come up with as solutions.
        Harassment TOS has loopholes such as "repeated action" or "towards individuals" that make it incredibly easy for group-targeted harassment to also slip through the cracks. Some examples were also of hateful speech directly being in the title, comments, or tags but if they were not "repeated" or "towards individuals" it wasn't considered harassment under the current TOS.
        
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      2. acidbirth Mon 22 May 2023 09:09PM UTC
        
        I did look through the @endOTWracism Twitter account, and I couldn't find examples of any specific posts on the archive. Maybe I missed them while skimming, and I understand the reluctance to link to specific words to avoid encouraging harassment themselves, but it's difficult to tell if there's a systemic enforcement problem when I can't find examples.
        I agree that three years to find a hire is inexcusable and progress should be made on that promise as soon as possible.
        When it comes to hateful speech being present in titles and tags, you encounter the problem I described earlier of tasking AO3 volunteers with deciding what is or what isn't offensive. And they would likely have to judge intent--for instance, I don't think most people would accuse a POC using an ethnic slur of being racist, or gay people who use homophobic slurs of being homophobic, but those kinds of identities are impossible to establish on the internet. I don't think it is AO3's responsibility to decide which words are appropriate for which people to say. To quote AO3's Diversity Statement, "You are free to express your creativity within the few restrictions needed to keep the service viable for other users. The Archive strives to protect your rights to free expression and privacy."
        I also agree that group-based harassment should be covered under the TOS. I don't believe that someone saying, as an example, "lynch all [marginalized group]" should be treated differently from someone saying that towards a specific person. However, I do think the Archive's current stance on distinguishing between targeted threats/harassment, and the depiction or display of bigotry in general, is reasonable and necessary to protect inclusion of all kinds on AO3.
        
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        (12 more comments in this thread)
        
        nekoniku Mon 22 May 2023 09:12PM UTC
        
        Such cases as? And how would any flaw in the AO3 report harassment system be linked specifically to racism, if the system itself is flawed and has the same reaction towards any kind of harassment?
        
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        pretty_weird_ideas Mon 22 May 2023 09:59PM UTC
        
        I'm just following what OTW's statement had explained was a problem in 2020 when they addressed racism and promised to have the diversity consultant to look over OTW's policies. It's flawed towards several types of harassment actually. But at the time in 2020, the subject they were speaking on was how racial harassment on AO3 needed to be solved.
        It's been around three years in the making. The way I see it, I want all of the harassment section of the TOS to better describe different types of harassment. The specification on race is because of the promises that they made to fix those issues.
        
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        Finlaena Mon 22 May 2023 10:17PM UTC
        
        That... is very concerning, to put it mildly.
        You are right, tho', in a time where DEI hires are just about everywhere, there's no reason or excuse for them not to have hired someone by now. A lot of the donations go towards legal expenses, but a cursory glance of financial reports show they could at least consider hiring a person or two as a DEI consultant on how to draft a policy that firmly states the kinds of harassment is not tolerated on AO3.
        
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        birdboy2000 Wed 24 May 2023 01:03AM UTC
        
        The evidentiary basis for believing that DEI consulting actually reduces racism in any measurable way, for all the money that's been pumped into the field, is astonishingly weak. And frankly, if I run into someone inciting hatred, blocks and mutes are more than sufficient to not have to deal with them anymore.
        I'm fine with tightening up the rules about group targeting, provided (as happens too rarely online) they're enforced in an even-handed manner, instead of becoming a case marked by favoritism where some people can be nasty and no one else can be nasty right back to them. But I do think bans on anything short of spambots should require repeated violations, banning is a serious matter and should hit people who are genuinely only in here to spread hatred, not people who have a lapse in judgment or don't realize how the rules are being enforced.
        
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        pretty_weird_ideas Wed 24 May 2023 06:45AM UTC
        
        I'm not arguing that the DEI consultant could wave a magic wand and fix everything. Rather, I'm just outlining the explicit agreement that OTW made in 2020, along with "Looking over the TOS for targeted harassment". The DEI consultant is being mentioned here because it's the first step. The consultant was supposed to overlook those changes. The rest of the promises are dependent on red tape, several members collaborating, and a lot of internal politics. But hiring someone (not their work itself) should be fast-tracked.
        I'm rather just pointing out the fact that they said they would do something about it. Not that their ideals and plans are flawless. The lack of a consultant is holding up all of the other promises that OTW had made (outside of the coding project) and that needs to be solved first. The consultant was implied to be the capstone for the listed actions. They're too central and need to be handled first.
        Also, IIRC AO3 doesn't have a strike rule. I also am not a fan of unilateral bans without warnings though.
        
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        wellpresseddaisy Fri 26 May 2023 03:05PM UTC
        
        The board of directors covered the hiring of a diversity consultant in their minutes: https://www.transformativeworks.org/board_minutes/board-meeting-minutes-27-march-2023/
        It'a under 'Update on the OTWs Diversity Work' and will be a regular section of the minutes going forward. Having that section also answers the End OTW Racism call to have more transparency into what's going on.
        
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      3. tillwehavefaces Sat 27 May 2023 03:52PM UTC
        
        No, they don't. They never do and never have. I've been here since 2016. This whole "discourse" became prominent in 2020 for reasons I'm sure I don't need to explain. All the way back then I asked them for proof. It's 3 years later and I have never, seen, EVER, ANYWHERE, these people actually provide examples of the "racist harrassment" this site is supposedly rife with.
        
        What have I seen on this site? In my casual browsing (over many years), a tiny handful (can literally be counted on one hand) of troll fics featuring Adolf Hitler and Anne Frank and things like that. Offensive? Well, given it's all too obviously just some stupid kid trying to be edgy, not to me. I'm sure they would be to a lot of people tho. Does that mean they should be banned? Well, given this is a site which freely allows graphic child rape erotica, not unless AO3 is going to start banning a whole lot of other content as well, which would mean going down exactly the slippery people are warning about, and end up just like ff.net (i.e. practically dead).
        I encounter content I find disgusting, offensive or just extremely poorly-written on this site every day. Does it annoy me? Do I wish I didn't have to see it? Yes. Do I whinge for that stuff to be removed? No. Blocking and muting were long-overdue but vital tools. The ability to permanently blacklist tags is something that should be added pronto (I'm aware of web extensions; those don't work on mobile, which is where I do my browsing and reading). This is the way to deal with things. More power to the users, not the moderators.
        For whatever it's worth, I am not straight, not white not "neurotypical" and these people do not fucking speak for me. I write dark, toxic, depraved, EXTREMELY graphic and kinky smut. Usually some flavour of dubcon or noncon. I use this site because it's literally the only platform that allows me to post anything and everything I write, without it being manually filtered/reviewed by someone's else's scrutiny and judgment. I've tried looking elsewhere. There is nowhere else, or at least nothing with a comparably large size, reach and community and certainly nothing with as good an interface (you only realise what an absolute godsend once you try to navigate sites without it). I would not be a fanfic writer without AO3. I am so grateful AO3 exists and it would break my heart to see it change its stance of including anything that doesn't violate US law, and become just another FF.net or Wattpad. If that happened, I don't know where I would go. I might even stop writing fanfic altogether. So I pray to every power in the universe these people don't win.
        
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      4. LordiTheRailgun Sat 27 May 2023 04:27PM UTC
        
        >blacklist tags
        Fucking this! I feel like people have been wishing for this for ages. Updates and coding are daunting tasks, I understand so naturally it's not going to happen overnight but OTW really needs to implement this - preferably soon. It makes me a little curious about their priorities when blocking and muting were functions that took a very long time to implement considering how old the Archive is.
        We can have favorite tags, so why not a tag blacklist?
        Indeed I too would love for them to keep the archive open and lawless as well while also giving users the power to curate their experience.
        
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        tillwehavefaces Sat 27 May 2023 04:36PM UTC
        
        "Indeed I too would love for them to keep the archive open and lawless as well while also giving users the power to curate their experience."
        This exactly. Let people post what they want to post, see what they want to see, and interact with who they want to interact with. Then everyone should be happy. Anyone who isn't is a puritan police stater on a power trip.
        
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        LordiTheRailgun Sat 27 May 2023 04:56PM UTC
        
        This discussion about "censoring vs moderating + slippery slope argument" reminds me of the whole Tiffany G drama from last year. Where this supposed veteran of the site ran for election as director of the board and wanted to "make the site more palatable" for China since, ostensibly, the Archive is banned there. It caused a massive shitstorm and absolutely no one was on board. Even a petition was made.
        She never specified what exactly she wanted to change but active censorship was inferred. The whole thing was so surreal, it makes me wonder if it was just one big elaborate troll.
        Honestly, talks about censorship and whatnot wouldn't and shouldn't be a hot topic if the OTW just gave the users more power.
        
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        tillwehavefaces Sat 27 May 2023 09:48PM UTC
        
        I didn't hear about this controversy, but the only reason Chinese users were coming here at all was for the slash I believe (the CCP not being a fan of men bumping uglies even though it's not technically illegal anymore there). So if they censored that out (which would wipe out, what, half the site's content? Certainly every bit of it I've ever contributed lol), they'd be removing the one (or at least the main) appeal for Chinese fangirls in the first place lol
        "Honestly, talks about censorship and whatnot wouldn't and shouldn't be a hot topic if the OTW just gave the users more power."
        Exactly, what we need is subsidiarity in action. All power to the people! Really think decentralisation is the way to go, not just with this, but social media in general (e.g. Mastodon or what Jack is supposed to be trying to do with Blue Sky). And in fact with politics and society in general. People in America already seem to be sorting themselves into states by values. Sadly those of us stuck in unitary regimes don't have that option. Why not extend that everywhere, all the way? Like the clades in Neal's The Diamond Age. Wouldn't that be actual, workable, anarchism in practice? Freedom of association. So much needless conflict comes from forcing incompatible people to coexist. But anyway, I'll get off my soapbox. It shouldn't be *that* hard to have the site filter interface remember your blacklisted tags given someone's already coded a Chrome Extension for it with TamperMonkey...
        
        Last Edited Sat 27 May 2023 10:04PM UTC
        
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        tillwehavefaces Sat 27 May 2023 04:34PM UTC
        
        Whoops, meant to say *slippery slope
        and *what a godsend the AO3 tagging system is
        
        Last Edited Sat 27 May 2023 04:34PM UTC
        
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        acidbirth Sun 28 May 2023 02:32AM UTC
        
        I tried to be patient throughout that thread, but it was pretty telling that in both cases, the other person fell silent/moved on when asked for evidence. I can see why; the examples cited by their core Tumblr manifesto are more along the lines of generally offensive content rather than actual targeted harassment. It's difficult to avoid concluding that they're simply being coy about what they're actually upset about, and appealing to an allegedly systemic harassment problem to shore up support for an unpopular position, making censorship a core element of the site. I'm skeptical of any movements that are fervently anti-OTW, because it seems like again and again it always comes down to the liberal content policies.
        Ah well. I'll keep supporting the archive and voting for board members who will uphold the site's core principles.
        
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        (2 more comments in this thread)
3. MalcontentCatboy Tue 23 May 2023 05:11AM UTC
  
  Thanks for telling everyone the quiet part out loud.
  
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4. 1. weshouldfondue Tue 23 May 2023 11:24AM UTC
    
    And that is?
    
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WingedDragon Mon 22 May 2023 03:36PM UTC

I hope it is not from the AI backlash. Thank you for your dedication.

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Finlaena Mon 22 May 2023 06:21PM UTC

I too am curious to know if this has anything to do with the recent AI keruffle and the #EndOTWRacism protests; while I understand AO3’s overarching policy as a place to post any and all fanworks -regardless of content-, I do believe some clear, uncrossable lines have to be drawn somewhere with both subjects.
And the lack of communication on both is worrisome imho.

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1. cloudygremlin Mon 22 May 2023 07:20PM UTC
  
  Agreed. There needs to be accountability and the excuse of creative freedom to avoid taking responsibility. And then throwing a volunteer, who clear had the orgs support, under the bus shows they are willing to do anything no matter how unethical. It's like a slow motion dash con
  
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2. wheretobe Tue 23 May 2023 12:51PM UTC
  
  I mean ao3 is under review for future blocking in germany for accusations of allowing childporn stories under the umbrella of: we allow all fanstories.
  It needs to be said that CSFM reported stories, as per statment to the german government does get deleted and is prohibited and germany is still reviewing things submitted to them and has aparently not reached out to OTW asking for any clarification
  
  Last Edited Tue 23 May 2023 01:04PM UTC
  
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3. 1. generalfrings Tue 23 May 2023 03:57PM UTC
    
    Ironically, ya know what else is illegal in Germany? Nazi ideology, visuals, exaltation of, reproductions of, etc. Guess what else AO3 is not addressing under this excuse of all-inclusiveness to avoid moderating their platform in the year 2023? Fanworks exalting nazi genocide, purposefully, often with the express purpose of harassing other users.
    People really forget that AO3 only cares about what is legal in the USA. The entire ToS is based on that - and there are a lot of things that are legal in the USA that are not in a good part of the rest of the world (CSAM being quite a major one that is highly relevant). I wonder if folks think the OTW would come bat for them on a criminal case outside the US because of stories they've uploaded or read here. And if that sounds absurd to anyone reading this, I'd recommend checking how good of a job the OTW does in regards to protecting or anonymizing user data (hint: it's not great!).
    
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  2. 1. wheretobe Tue 23 May 2023 04:10PM UTC
      
      They could expand the block for that I reckon. Nazi pages get blocked all the time if found. I dont know how Germany decides on these things.
      
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    2. 1. generalfrings Tue 23 May 2023 05:00PM UTC
        
        Yeah they've also blocked many a game in Germany (both use and sale) because of that, from all manner of budgets, so I guess we'll see.
        
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      2. wheretobe Tue 23 May 2023 05:29PM UTC
        
        Wolfenstein had to change their whole textures and take out nazi signs. Later germany lifted the strict ban of game related things.
        
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        LordiTheRailgun Tue 23 May 2023 05:44PM UTC
        
        Damn, you beat me to it. I was just about to mention Wolfenstein and Mecha Hitler.
        But I know they also removed an entire section from I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream because, IIRC, it was about a former Nazi coming to terms with his sins. The damnedest thing is that by removing that section, it made the game unbeatable.
        I wonder if they lifted the ban for that game too.
        
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    3. moljn Tue 23 May 2023 04:28PM UTC
      
      CSAM is not allowed on AO3. Fictional, underage porn is not CSAM.
      Stories about Nazis may be tasteless, but it's not something that's easy to draw a line on [ETA: when the archive strives to allow all fictional content], unless there's a call to harassment or illegal action in the story or story notes, or other evidence.
      
      Last Edited Tue 23 May 2023 04:34PM UTC
      
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    4. 1. generalfrings Tue 23 May 2023 04:59PM UTC
        
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_child_pornography
        
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      2. moljn Tue 23 May 2023 05:31PM UTC
        
        You realize that most laws by far concern themselves with images, right? Anyway, I don't actually care if a few countries equate fictional and real children in this case. No real children have been harmed in the stories that are allowed on the archive.
        
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        generalfrings Tue 23 May 2023 06:17PM UTC
        
        Sorry, but who asked? I don't care what you think. I don't even know why you're in my replies arguing about a point I never even brought up. I'm very much not having the conversation you seem to think I am having, and I'm not interested in having the one you seem to want to have - at all, really, but especially so with you, random internet user#7983652756324897.
        
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        moljn Tue 23 May 2023 06:40PM UTC
        
        You're in a public forum. Deal with it.
        You claimed the archive allows CSAM, which in usual internet parlance means images of real children, and I corrected that. And then I added an opinion in relation to what else you said, because again, that's how forums work.
        
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        generalfrings Tue 23 May 2023 10:24PM UTC
        
        You must be from the USA, and if you're not, that's highly embarrassing that you give off that vibe. Good luck with that.
        
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        jedimasterfinch Thu 25 May 2023 09:01AM UTC
        
        If someone posts a comment in this pubic space which is open to all, anyone can respond. Moljn, asked or not, has the right to respond with what seem to be relevant points to others here with the same rights to this discussion regarding the archive we all access. You may disagree with their comments but labeling a diverse nation of over 330 million people descended from or emigrated from almost every country on the planet as “highly embarrassing” is insensitive. Each of us is unique, likely all of us here are allies, and we are struggling mightily to figure things out at a time of great change as technology races forward and humanity fights to evolve greater openness and acceptance of its diversity. None of us should be told to feel embarrassed about where we happened to be born.
        I understand the passion and have myself been carried away with heated commenting elsewhere in the past and so from experience on both sides, I encourage you to debate your ideas while not labeling an entire nation in such a pejorative way. Though not currently perfect, AO3 has long been striving to be a space where fans from everywhere can be safe from generalizing attacks on their ethnicity, orientation, and other immutable traits of identity. Be the change here in the comments you want to see in the archive as a whole.
        
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        generalfrings Thu 25 May 2023 09:03AM UTC
        
        LMAO found the other USAmerican.
        
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        tillwehavefaces Sat 27 May 2023 03:58PM UTC
        
        Petition to block people like you from AO3. Honestly. Then all this drama would just go away and everyone could get on happily posting and reading fanfic like we were before.
        (FYI never set foot in America)
        
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        generalfrings Sat 27 May 2023 04:01PM UTC
        
        Lmfaoo found another one!
        
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        tillwehavefaces Sat 27 May 2023 04:16PM UTC
        
        Another what? Braincell? Cool, but you'll need a lot more to do you any good.
        
        Last Edited Sat 27 May 2023 04:16PM UTC
        
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        generalfrings Sat 27 May 2023 04:19PM UTC
        
        Lmaoo thanks for so readily helping demonstrate my point of how embarrassing it is to act like a USAmerican.
        
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        tillwehavefaces Sat 27 May 2023 04:20PM UTC
        
        The only one embarrassing themselves here is you, hun. I wouldn't like to insult any country by speculating you might be from there, though I definitely have a few in mind.
        
        Last Edited Sat 27 May 2023 04:21PM UTC
        
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        generalfrings Sat 27 May 2023 04:26PM UTC
        
        LMAO Please share with the class what your astute assumptions are, we must know the USAmerican's famously accurate assumptions on the rest of the world!
        
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        tillwehavefaces Sat 27 May 2023 04:15PM UTC
        
        Lmao who's gonna tell her like 35% of AO3 is "child pornography" by her definition?
        
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        generalfrings Sat 27 May 2023 04:23PM UTC
        
        "Her"? "My" definition? LOL
        
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  3. delilahdraken Tue 23 May 2023 04:13PM UTC
    
    Wasn't that investigation stopped because someone in the review organisation didn't follow correct procedures?
    
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  4. 1. wheretobe Tue 23 May 2023 04:22PM UTC
      
      The initial so called indexing was taken back but as per netwatch the page is still under review
      I also dont understand how they never reached out to ao3 for a statement
      
      Last Edited Tue 23 May 2023 04:25PM UTC
      
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    2. 1. delilahdraken Tue 23 May 2023 05:10PM UTC
        
        Yeah, it was very strange that they never contacted ao3.
        Also, it would probably be quite difficult to get the indexing/ban to stick. If they followed the law as it is exactly written over 80% of all books marketed as Young Adult would also need to be banned.
        
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      2. wheretobe Tue 23 May 2023 05:28PM UTC
        
        tbh I dont see them enforcing it either. To me it feels like someone was pissed at the page, alleged there was child porn and never had proof or it was proper deleted. but the page already banned and now they are simply watching it for further transgressions. Its just odd not to talk to the group behind the page and actually learn about this page.
        But I guess the Internet is Neuland to the Germans....
        
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        delilahdraken Tue 23 May 2023 06:45PM UTC
        
        To me it feels like someone was pissed at the page, alleged there was child porn and never had proof or it was proper deleted
        It does sound like someone with a grudge, yes.
        As to the enforceability, out of curiosity I asked a criminal defence lawyer some time ago. I was told that police do not actively go after written text here in Germany. It gets used as additional evidence when they investigate someone that already has visual media, but without pictures as evidence that a real human was harmed they don't care.
        The investigators have more important fish to hunt.
        
        Last Edited Tue 23 May 2023 06:45PM UTC
        
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Wild_Hearted Mon 22 May 2023 09:55PM UTC

Hope that every thing is well in their life, it can be a big decision to step back no matter what the reasons are. Wishing all the best.

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lovelamp Mon 22 May 2023 11:04PM UTC

I wish I could volunteer :sobs:

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