I know nothing about coding so I can't speak to that at all (one failed programming class in high school let me know that that was definitely not the right careeer for me :D).
As far as ffnet levels of badness, what do you mean exactly? I've found AO3 to be infinitely preferable to ffnet, not only in what types of fanworks they allow but also in functionality. The only tags you can use on ffnet are characters, and a maximum of two at that. There isn't any way to add warning or content tags, which I think is a major flaw on their part.
I meant mostly in terms of having to wade through stuff you don't want in order to get to the stuff you do, but since you brought this up, as a reader I find FF.net's pure site functionality way better, definitely. Their fandom categories are mostly pretty clear, without a lot of the angst that goes on with Ao3 categories. Their fandom categories are easily visible in one go without massive whitespaces, and have the option of the user being able to arrange them by popularity (aka no. of fics) or by name. Plus, there's the thing like no-one putting "thorki" in the fandom category.
Their search function, for one thing, works like a dream, with filtering options from the same page of search results. Their normal fanfic pages on-page filtering system not only allows filtering by time and word count, but also allows one to browse only the incomplete works.
Crossovers are all easily findable or avoidable as one's preference might be; for canons like HDM, I can go to their category page and be assured that I will not run into a Sherlock or Avengers Daemon AU. Even their character option is pretty great, in that I know that if I'm searching for "Pepper Potts", i will get only fics where Pepper Potts plays a prominent role and not a 1:25 ratio of fics with Pepper in a prominent role: Pepper appearing as a background character or god forbid, a 1-line cameo. There's the author PM function, fan forums, and for authors, there's even a beta network for those looking for one.
Their mobile view is great (and they actually also have an extremely functional mobile app. Though hell, even Literotica has an pretty great mobile app!) Their share functionalities are also a lot more integrated. And most importantly, the site almost never gives me errors while trying to access it. (Though definitely, AO3 has been better about this for some while)
Warnings and content info can be pretty adequately added to the summary (in fact, content info is what the summary is for, isn't it?), if they're really required, which they aren't in the vast majority of fanfic, even that posted to this site.
I do love AO3's tagging a LOT, don't get me wrong, but from my POV, that pretty much the only thing Ao3 functionality has going on for itself, and since that's what most of the current debate in centered around (ie. lack of good code, lack of maintainable infrastructure, lack of transparency in that the so-called freeform tags are actually not so freeform at all), I do feel a fair bit of worry, when it comes to this. I don't really frequent FF.net at all much, these days, because my current fandoms are all mostly on AO3, but functionality-wise I don't think that's really true.
Excellent points, definitely. And I agree there are some functionality issues that need to be addressed by AO3--a pm system and crossover distinctions are two I'd love to see. But I do also see a lot of functionality with AO3 that I like. The skins are a godsend for me personally. the bright white of ffnet can be hard on my eyes, so being able to use a beige or grey background here is so much better for me.
The summary can be used for warnings and such, but it has a very low character limit so it's not easy to fit that in with a decent summary description. Having a limit of only two characters in a story is really limiting for me, and I like to be able to see all fics that feature a specific character, no matter how small their role is. I know I've missed a lot of good fics that had characters I loved simply because the story had multiple pairings and could only be classified with one.
I very rarely use ffnets search functions that they've recently put into place like number of hits, comments, etc because they never really give me satisfactory results (just because a story's popular doesn't make it great. One of my most popular fics over here is one that makes me cringe whenever I think about how bad a writer I was when I first wrote it!)
I don't use mobile services, but I can tell from what a lot of people have said on here that AO3 is woefully lacking in that department--I can definitely understand the frustration with that, given that more and more people are using mobile apps. I'm also lucky in that the fandoms I follow are relatively small, so I don't see the frustrations that people apparently deal with in the larger fandoms.
So yeah, even with the problems that AO3 has, I definitely prefer it over ffnet. AO3's also come a long way in functionality in the last two years since I wandered over here, so I feel pretty confident that changes will come about eventually, though I share the frustration of it not happening quickly.
I'm pretty optimistic about this site, and happy with what they provide overall. But my major site for posting fanfic before here was ffnet and I have too many bones to pick with them to maybe be as objective as I should. Their discrimination, high tendency to pull fics that don't violate TOS, and their refusal to address any concerns directly just stick in my craw. AO3 and OTW may not address every single concern like they perhaps should, but they do a much, much better job than places like ffnet and live journal.
As someone who writes fic with polyamory and multiple pairings, or more than two main characters, and who often writes for multimedia fandoms where it's nice to be able to tag for multiple versions of canon (rather than "crossovers" with other canons), and as someone who REALLY likes being able to include links in author's notes, FFN is not totally ideal for my purposes as a reader or writer.
And that's not even touching the horrible, horrible upload interface, and the fact that I can't easily edit typos out of older stories, I have to upload a new copy. Or their condescending TOS. Or the fact that between URL/special character stripping and the TOS, epistolary fiction in the form of emails is unpostable (I mean, not that this is a common genre, but seriously).
FFN does some things better than AO3, but AO3 does other things far better (I'm not sure I consider tagging one of them, especially since my current fandom is full of Tumblr-style tags that are useless for finding anything, but I still find it easier to find things here than FFN).
First of all, the multiple character and pairing categories which you are referring to is part of the tagging interface. Tumblr-style tags are of no use, but they are just one component of the tagging system, and not the main one. Hell, even the fandom name thing on AO3 is part of the tagging interface.
As a fan of many minor character and pairings or rather characters and pairings that get short-shrifted in fandom, the fact that most fics under those character tags on Ao3 feature said characters in cameos and background is definitely not even in the vicinity of ideal for me. As a fan of multimedia massive fandoms, the fact that Ao3 offers no checks, that the Avengers (comics) tag is inundated with a bazillion movieverse fics, is also not a positive for me. So obviously contradictory viewpoints exist. I'm sure there are many MANY fans whose priorities are completely different from either your or mine.
Yes, Ao3 does many things well. But I don't think that means that a) one group of fandom priorities are in any way superior or more worthy of being catered to than the other, by an organization that dubs itself as the representative of ~all fandom~, or that b) doing those certain things well, is enough excuse to not do other things well, c) that 'at least it's not as bad as FF.net TOS' is enough to refuse to listen to user-base concerns about functionality, transparency and structural integrity.
That AO3 has its good points for writers is definitely true. But equally true is the fact that it takes its readerbase and those concerns very much for granted.
First of all, the multiple character and pairing categories which you are referring to is part of the tagging interface.
I...am fully aware of this? The fact that I don't think the AO3 tagging system is perfect or in all ways an improvement over FFN's filtering system does not mean I don't think the AO3 tagging system has no good qualities.
As a fan of many minor character and pairings or rather characters and pairings that get short-shrifted in fandom, the fact that most fics under those character tags on Ao3 feature said characters in cameos and background is definitely not even in the vicinity of ideal for me.
I agree. On the other hand, FFN often doesn't include minor characters as options, so fic featuring them is often no easier to find there. "Making AO3 more like FFN" is not going to solve the problems with AO3, and could easily introduce new problems.
Yes, Ao3 does many things well. But I don't think that means that a) one group of fandom priorities are in any way superior or more worthy of being catered to than the other, by an organization that dubs itself as the representative of ~all fandom~, or that b) doing those certain things well, is enough excuse to not do other things well, c) that 'at least it's not as bad as FF.net TOS' is enough to refuse to listen to user-base concerns about functionality, transparency and structural integrity.
That AO3 has its good points for writers is definitely true. But equally true is the fact that it takes its readerbase and those concerns very much for granted.
As for the rest...I have NO IDEA why you seem to think I'm saying AO3 is perfect and wonderful and doing everything great. I'm not even going to bother addressing your "points," since they are in response to absolutely nothing I've said, but are arguing against some kind of strawman argument you think I'm making.
Ok, I think this is getting kind of inappropriate and off-topic for a news-post comment thread, and if you want to continue, I'd be pretty okay with taking this to the unofficial forum (otw-unofficial.freeforums.net) but really:
a) If you're aware of that, then why bring up that point in response to a comment that said "I do love AO3's tagging"? b) Has anyone at any point said "Make AO3 like FFN"? I fail to see where that has happened. c) Considering that your comment was in response to..... basically a comment that said 'these particular functionalities FF.net gives and Ao3 doesn't are personally pretty useful to me' in response to a comment that said that the other person found FF.net functionality inadequate, what exactly were you feeling the need to respond to yourself, may I know?
I fail to see how my comment was any more "inappropriate" or off-topic than all the talk of FFN (or that some anon is the arbiter of "appropriateness"), but no, I'm not interested in further discussions with curiously angry anons with axes to grind. I'm done.
I can't make heads or tails of why the anon is arguing with you here either. Unless it's a knee-jerk "person praising something about AO3 tagging = must be an apologist for all the other concerns about the AO3 being raised in this post" reaction.
(Either that, or Overly Aggressive Anon has migrated out from FFA...)
Don't get me wrong, but wasn't the errr... "Overly Aggressive Anon" (intriguing epithet!) the person who praised Ao3's tagging structure and the person (Carmarthen) you're currently replying to, the one who said they weren't a fan?
Both of them have had a mix of praise and criticism! (Anon: "I find FF.net's pure site functionality way better, definitely....I do love AO3's tagging a LOT, don't get me wrong"; Carmathen "FFN does some things better than AO3, but AO3 does other things far better".) And both have talked about specific, individual tagging functionalities that work for their needs.
Which is why it's so weird that the anon jumped to "I don't think that means that...[the AO3] doing those certain things well, is enough excuse to not do other things well", when both of them have said "the AO3 does certain things well" -- and neither has said "that's an excuse not to do other things well."
The purpose of my original comment on this announcement was to express my support for OTW and the decision they made regarding meta. I fully approve of the way they are prioritizing issues and I am extremely grateful for the fact that an archive such as AO3 exists. Why the two of you have decided to turn this into an argument about which site (AO3 or ffnet) is better, I have no idea. I never even mentioned tagging or other specifics in my original comment.
Again, it was meant to be a positive, praiseworthy comment showing my support. I am definitely open to discussions regarding my original comment, but I'm disappointed that this thread has turned from a showing of support into outright criticism which goes completely against what I was trying to accomplish.
I've also at times thought that FFN's drop-downs rather than freeform tags were more, er, stupidity-proof. Sad that users need that sometimes. I like that AO3 has a bit more faith in users' intelligence, even if we as a group sometimes disappoint in that regard.
I do find FFN more frustrating to navigate, though. Only allowing two characters really does bother me a lot, because a lot of my stories focus on three, either as a poly relationship or just as ensemble/friendship. How do you categorize a gen Team TARDIS fic when your Team TARDIS of choice has more than two people in it? How do you categorize a fic that's about how a phenomenon affected different members of the cast, and has a different character focus in each section? Sets of three characters are exceedingly common in many fandoms as inseparable units. If I list only two, it deliberately shafts the third as unimportant, and implies a pairing I may not have been writing about.
It also, somewhat ironically given FFN's delicate sensibilities, implies that all fanfiction is about romance. I like that AO3 has a field for that; shipping is important to fandom! But not all fic is shipping fic. FFN's "choose two and only two characters that readers are going to assume will bone in this fic" structure is atrociously limiting.
And while I do strongly wish AO3 would let me blacklist fandoms (if I never saw another BBC Sherlock fic again it would be too soon) I do actually like that crossovers are mixed in with the fandoms they're part of. I don't want to have to specifically set out looking for crossovers to see them. Sometimes you discover something cool! Plus the only two fandoms per crossover rule makes no sense. And then there's the sticky situations where the canons are already related: Buffy and Angel, Hercules and Xena, Doctor Who and all its complications, Avatar: The Last Airbender and The Legend of Korra. If I write a fic about how different Avatars dealt with similar problems, that includes both Aang and Korra, that's sort of a crossover now, even though it never left the same universe. On AO3 it's visible in both fandom fields, and would probably be of interest to fans of both. On FFN I either have to pick one or have it hidden away under crossovers where no one will ever click on it.
And oh my god, as someone who likes writing and reading for small fandoms of obscure books and movies, AO3 is a godsend. Despair is having to search the "Misc Movies/Books" section for that one fic about that character that keeps you up at night.
I also like to search by content sometimes. There are days when you just want wingfic and you don't care what fandom gives it to you. It isn't perfect on AO3 (being able to see a list of canonical content tags and perhaps select all that apply would be helpful! I know my mind goes blank as to what's in my own damn fic when I'm on the upload page a lot) but FFN doesn't have it at all, so AO3 wins there by default. Searching by summaries just isn't the same.
Your elitism regarding the quality of stories also troubles me. I consider piles of badfic to be a sign of a healthy archive. AO3 was never intended to be an elitist group or have minimum standards of quality. It was meant to be inclusive and welcome all fanwork, and hopefully become a massive archive. You need badfic to be massive. If you want curated content, some archives do play that game. I know Teaspoon (a Doctor Who archive) moderates fics and does have minimum standards of quality. But I like it when no one is locked out. I don't mind the thirteen-year-olds just learning to bang out sentences. I even find some of their fics enjoyable, if for nothing but raw enthusiasm. Inclusion makes an archive feel more like a community, where people of varying skill levels are all learning and growing together, than some kind of snobby, exclusive club where everyone worries about not being good enough.
Really, I think AO3's biggest flaw right now is the whole invite situation, though I know that's a necessity just because the infrastructure can't handle unmoderated growth.
There are a couple userscripts for blacklisting stuff (including fandom tags) here http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/153118 and http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/153120. The saved filters one and a global filter of '-"BBC Sherlock"' might work for you.
Comment on OTW Board response to concerns about the meta decision
kelcat Mon 25 Feb 2013 08:45PM UTC
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Really? (Guest) Mon 25 Feb 2013 09:11PM UTC
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kelcat Mon 25 Feb 2013 11:18PM UTC
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Carmarthen Tue 26 Feb 2013 06:50AM UTC
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Uhh (Guest) Tue 26 Feb 2013 07:15AM UTC
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Carmarthen Tue 26 Feb 2013 07:45AM UTC
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WTF (Guest) Tue 26 Feb 2013 08:48AM UTC
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Carmarthen Tue 26 Feb 2013 03:15PM UTC
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ErinPtah Tue 26 Feb 2013 09:14AM UTC
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fleeting_fiend (Guest) Tue 26 Feb 2013 09:47AM UTC
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ErinPtah Tue 26 Feb 2013 04:41PM UTC
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kelcat (Guest) Thu 28 Feb 2013 05:09PM UTC
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rivalshipping Tue 26 Feb 2013 04:26PM UTC
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Aiffe Fri 01 Mar 2013 04:58PM UTC
Last Edited Fri 01 Mar 2013 05:00PM UTC
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tuff_ghost Fri 01 Mar 2013 06:19PM UTC
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